Talk:Skyrim Civil War
Regarding non-Nord membership of the Stormcloak rebellion Bethesda provides numerous in-game references in the game of Skyrim that highlight how the Stormcloak rebellion is not a Nord-only affair. Specific examples which disprove the contentions of user Daevran13: *Endon refers to his son Cade, who is a Redguard native of Skyrim who has joined the Stormcloak uprising. Endon additionally mentions that he would have made the same choice as Cade did if he had been younger. This is revealed as part of random dialogue within the Silver-Blood Inn during evening hours. *The Dragonborn can partake in the initiation rite of the Stormcloaks regardless of his or her ethnic background. *When asked by a non-Nord character whether he or she should really consider joining the Stormcloaks after escaping from Helgen, the Stormcloak NPC Ralof responds with the following statement: "Of course! You don't have to be a Nord to fight for Skyrim's freedom." ''This is revealed by talking to the NPC right after the quest Unbound is completed. Assuming that user Daevran13's edits are made in good faith, they appear based on a lacking knowledge of the in-game lore of Skryim. His continued attempts at removing information directly relevant to the content of this article are detrimental to its quality, and are to be responded to accordingly. Arshudar Al-Muhdarin (talk) 12:51, February 9, 2014 (UTC) : My edits are based on in-game evidence. The Stormcloaks have ZERO non-Nord members. This is according to the game's programming and the Construction Kit which allows us to view the race of every single member of the faction. :*Endon is not listed as a Stormcloak in the CK and his son Cade is never seen in-game, nor is there a Cade/Race=Redguard/Faction=Stormcloak in the CK. Ergo, it's an UNSUPPORTED RUMOR, not fact. :*Bethesda did that because restricting membership based on race would have induced fanboy rage. :*See above. : NOT. ONE. STORMCLOAK. IS. A. NON. NORD. Your edits appear to be based on either ignorance or desire to add your fanboy proaganda. 'DRAEVAN13' 14:47, February 9, 2014 (UTC) ::You struggle a bit with forming coherent arguments. If non-Nords actively come to join the Stormcloak rebellion and the Stormcloaks allow for it, then the Stormcloak rebellion is not a Nord-only affair. That is a matter of fact, and not opinion or interpretation. The game developers themselves are confirming through various in-game dialogue that non-Nords are indeed Stormcloak members, notably the son of Endon, Cade. Your misguided Crusade therefore seems directed at Bethesda itself, and not editors who include information which traces its source back directly to Bethesda's very own writers. ::Secondly, the Hammerfell rebellion of the Redguards occurs for identical reasons and under identical circumstances as the Stormcloak uprising: an expression of local outrage over the Empire's treatment and abandonment of their people and culture, and as a military response to the Thalmor persecuting and murdering citizens within their own lands. The reference to Hammerfell is directly relevant to the subject of the Stormcloaks, as it explains why Redguards in particular are want to join the Stormcloaks despite being non-Nords. The addition of this information therefore does not qualify as a tangent, and is worthy of inclusion. ::Lastly, I'd like to thank you for vigorously (mouth-frothingly) pointing out that the farmer which the Dragonborn encounters on the road is indeed a Redguard, rather than an Imperial. It serves to further solidify the truth that non-Nords - for unsurprising reasons Redguards in particular given that the Stormcloak rebellion has a sister movement in Hammerfell - join the uprising and the Stormcloak movement thus is multi-cultural by definition. Arshudar Al-Muhdarin (talk) 04:25, February 20, 2014 (UTC) ::: Have you not read the Talk Page on the Civil War Page? Tombraiser and Zippertrain, Admins and Moderators, have asked you to stop adding that info. You keep adding it. There are no non-Nord Stormcloaks, let alond "many". There is no evidence of Hammerfell or the Redguard race supporting Ulfric. '''One' possible Redguard supporter does NOT mean the entire race supports him. I've reverted your mis-information yet again. Hopefully, you'll stop adding this. DRAEVAN13 20:36, February 21, 2014 (UTC) ::::You won't have to worry about that anymore Draevan, EbonySkyrim has locked the page. I am Sylar (talk) 20:39, February 21, 2014 (UTC) :::::Good. I reverted his edit before it was locked. Now it'll stay in a factual state. DRAEVAN13 20:48, February 21, 2014 (UTC) ::::::Firstly - keep it civil and stop with the insults. Both of you. Secondly, Draevan - it should be noted that Creation Kit info is never a reliable source for lore - even the faction field. CK data is often obscure developer info that might ''give some insight into some things, but it should never be a primary source. ::::::After looking at the points and my own knowledge on the matter, its clear that Arshudar has some valid points. Wth lore, you don't take the "Betheada's reasoning for xyz" path. You document what you see, read, hear. Lets look at the relevant dialogue: :::::::*Endon and Cade: ''"He's off fighting, Adara, with the Stormcloaks. He'll return when the war is over." :::::::*Imperial Farmer: "I'm on my way to Windhelm to join up with the Stormcloaks. Ulfric has the right of it." ::::::The random Farmer is actually a dark skinned Imperial, so he may be mistaken as a Redguard. Based on these two isolated incidents and dialogue from other Stormcloaks, it's unreasonable to say that there are only ''Nords within the Stormcloaks. Nords are likely the vast majority, but to rule out any other races is false. Just because you don't actually see them as NPCs in game doesn't make it true - dialogue supports it. ::::::Next, Arshudar - while there are parallels to the Hammerfell Rebellion, claiming that this explains ''why ''Redguards in particular are want to join the Stormcloaks (despite being non-Nords) is too large an assumption. There can be any number of reasons why a Redguard may wish to join the Stormcloaks, but its not for us to assume. For this reason, your edit about ''"inspired the solidarity of non-Nords, notably of Redguards..." needs to be tweaked. I would support something that mentions some ''non-Nords having joined the Stormcloaks - but leave their motives/intentions out of it. I'll now unlock the page. Don't fight. Jimeee (talk) 12:12, February 26, 2014 (UTC) ::::::::Since I have a feeling Arshudar is going to disagree with this, here's what I have in mind: keep the page locked until we can agree what to add. Here's what I would add: ::::::::"The Dragonborn may encounter an Imperial Farmer heading to Windhelm to join the Stormcloaks. Whether he is accepted into their ranks is never known." And for the Redguards I agree with Jimeee: one possible member does not equal their entire race supporting Ulfric. 'DRAEVAN13' 14:28, February 26, 2014 (UTC) :::::::::In all due respect Draevan, I feel Arshudar's evidence is more comprehensive, although when he rewrites that section, he seems to exaggerate hismpoints quite alot. I think what Jimeee has said sums up the situation about right, that there is evidence to support non-Nord Stormcloaks, nothing speaks of vast support in Hammerfell or other places. You two should meet in the middle over this debate, as both of you are seeming to exaggerate your evidence. Yes, it seems that other races are permitted to enter the ranks of the Stormcloaks, but it speaks nowhere (I think) of vast support in other provinces or regions. 17:48, February 26, 2014 (UTC) ::::::::::Well that's my point: nowhere is there evidence of vast support from non-Nords. I'm not denying there are a few non-Nord supporters. In my arguments I acknowledge there are non-Nord farmers heading to Windhelm to join the Stormcloaks. But no non-Nord Stormcloaks are seen in-game, which is why I'm reluctant to add it. I have no problem with the article saying there MIGHT be, but saying there ARE is a problem since every single Stormcloak we see in the game is a Nord. Those farmers going to join are never seen again, they're never seen fighting for Ulfric or anything. Point is, saying they MIGHT be is fine. Saying there ARE is a problem. 'DRAEVAN13' 18:31, February 26, 2014 (UTC) Glaring Errors Some fairly big errors in this article. The imperials have their base of operations in Castle Dour, hardly a "small building". Castle Dour is (obviously) in Solitude, the hold of Solitude is the Blue Palace, which makes it impossible for the Stormcloaks to be using that as their base of operations. Lastly this brings up the use of the word "there" in this sentence from the Stormcloak entry "There base of operations is inside the Blue Palace ." The correct word is "their". There is a general lack of good grammar use in this entire article overall. The imperials don't want to destroy the Stormcloaks, they wish to crush the Stormcloak resistance and bring the entirety of Skyrim under Imperial rule. The Stormcloaks have a more complicated motivation. Skyrim was a part of the empire. The signing of the White Gold Concordat that ended the war with the elves also forbade the worship of Talos. The Stormcloaks feel that this is cowardice, considering Talos (as Tiber Septim) was actually a Nord, to them this outlawing is an outrage and spits on the legend of the man-god. So the Stormcloaks want to remove the Imperials and make Skyrim an independant state so they can allow the worship of Talos. From what I have read on lore Skyrim was never really strongly aligned with the empire anyway. Only write this here because I am not so good at writing succinctly, plus I may have some lore points wrong. 10:47, December 23, 2011 (UTC)LogiC : At a quick glance - that looks pretty correct to me. The last little bit isnt completely correct: The nords were already pretty much the backbone of stability in the empire (one of the Pocket Guides, I think, forget which one said that if ever the Nords awoke from their political slumber, the empire would be in trouble) but other than that, the lore sounds pretty correct. As for the glaring errors - I agree. Timeoin•Say G'Day• •Skyrim To-Do List 10:53, December 23, 2011 (UTC) I don't know where else to put this, but the entire Civil War topic on wiki is an absolute mess. If you look at the individual quests, jagged crown and of course joining the stormcloaks/legion are given from both POV's, but then "Message to Whiterun", the entire wiki page walkthrough is listed from only the stormcloak side. So is Battle for Whiterun, but then when you get to Reunification, the first thing it mentions is "report to general tulius" and the entire article is a short stub listing the legion side of events. I'm trying to decide what faction to choose, but it's impossible with the information given on wiki because not only are each individual quests walkthroughs very poor, but they don't give both sides' events, nor is it consistent on WHICH side's events are given. I was told the Civil War quests must be completed before the main quest and before the dark brotherhood storylines or diplomatic immunity will be terribly fubar'ed, so I should think this information would be very pertinent to most players.Theopheus (talk) 05:33, January 1, 2012 (UTC) :I haven't really even started the civil war (haven't gotten the Jagged Crown yet), but I had no trouble completing the Dark Brotherhood's storyline, nor did I have any hiccups while doing Diplomatic Immunity (XBox) Tyrasis (talk) 04:51, January 9, 2012 (UTC) :I've done it twice now with no problems, joining the Legion both times, the first time before the main quest ended and the second time after. The chief weirdness was in the story itself -- joining as more or less a common soldier when you're already regularly knocking dragons out of the sky. But I suppose that's more interesting than just going right to Ulrich's palace and slice'n'dicing him, and it's not nearly as weird as starting the Thieves Guild questline that late and being demoted to pickpocket. :I've never played the Stormcloak side and I suspect I never will, for much the same reason I never play the Legion side in Fallout: New Vegas. The Nords, with some honorable exceptions, are brutal clowns, know-nothing nativists and racists, and booting them in the teeth feels very satisfying. I don't find them very oppressed by the Imperial forces either. The main offence or crime against the Nords that the Imperials are unarguably guilty of, forbidding the worship of Talos, is implemented just enough to keep the Thalmor off the Empire's back. Seriously, do you ever have any problem finding a shrine of Talos if you want one? There's one in Riften, for instance, out in the broad daylight and nobody seems to be trying to smash it. The Thalmor are the real problem; the Imperial forces aren't yet strong enough to take them on, and they never will be if they keep on getting stabbed in the back. If the situation bothers you that much, wipe out a few Thalmor patrols to work your feelings off. 09:58, February 13, 2012 (UTC) ::That shows an ignorance of Tamriel international politics. For instance, The Second Aldmeri Dominion is actually a relatively small Tamriel Power, with the Argonian State and the Empire (even if Skyrim seceded) being much larger states. Furthermore, in the event of another war with the Thalmor, in all probability the Dominion would lose, as Hammerfell would most likely side with the Empire, as being surrounded by a potential enemy is NOT a smart thing to be, Skyrim would probably side with the Empire out of dislike for Mer races which had conquered it before, and Elsweyr would still hold tensions after the Five Years War. Also, The Empire has largely failed as a nation because the Thalmor have infiltrated almost all areas of their infrastructure, from trade positions to actively being able to seek out Talos worshippers in Skyrim. If you think Talos worship isn't being oppressed, you obviously haven't played a large amount of Markarth's missions. As for the rascism issue, while it is true that many races are a segregated minority, even if this did not end after the Civil War eventual social upheaval would occur and the threat of an uprising of all races would be politically disastrous for any nation. Corruption in the Empire is further seen when, if you give Riften to the Empire in Season Unending, Maven Black-Briar becomes the new Jarl. In conclusion, the Empire had become a disastrous, corrupt government that needs a new beginning if anything is to be done. :: :Uh, hey, quick fact check for the guy above me accusing others of ignorance while apparantly ignorant himself; first off, the Dominion is made up of the Summerset Isles, Valenwood, and Elsweyr (where they launched the initial attack in the last war, so clearly it's loyal). It's huge. Black Marsh was basically dropped from the Empire 200 years ago, and Hammerfall was kicked out when they objected to parts of their land being given to the Thalmor (they are now independent, and already managed to kick them out of their nation, so I don't see them running to back the Empire that sold them out). Morrowind is still reeling from the damage of Red Mountain erupting, and much of their heavily Dunmer population is likely sympathetic to the Dominion, since they are the last non-human race to be in the Empire; they will not be much help in any war. This leaves Cyrodill with Highrock (who have a bad history with the Altmer and will definitely remain loyal to the empire), Skyrim, and tiny little Orsinium. Losing Skyrim would deprive it of their best warriors (since they lost the Redguards) and also completely cut them off from High Rock. And the Nords, after all that bloodshed, would not turn around and support the Empire; after all, they just did that a few years ago and the response of the Empire was to give up and sell out Talos. If the Dominion started doing too well in a war, sure, I could see some aid coming to the Empire, but just enough to keep the Dominion stalled. And I realize this isn't the right place to have a debate, but I figured anyone reading this talk page might appreciate some facts. Canon what do you think will be the canonical winner in the elder scolls 6 i believe it is the stormcloaks due to the fact that the legion is like the romans and the roman empire it was around for ages and finanly got beaten by barbrians(the nords for skyrim) : Actually, they were beaten by the fact that all the other forces split off ;) Timeoin•Say G'Day• 10:50, February 13, 2012 (UTC) : when i said beaten i didn't mean destroyed just beaten by the goths(they sacked rome) : They'll probably take the easy way out and say both happened thanks to another Dragon Break, like they did for Daggerfall. Two other options would be to set the events of 6 either before Skyrim or far enough away that the civil war doesn't much matter (still hoping for Elsweyr). Tyrasis (talk) 06:05, February 14, 2012 (UTC) : That is a subject that has gained my increased interest lately. Each side to the Civil War conflict seems quite balanced in their agendas (Stormcloaks - Independence and freedom and right to worship Talos, on par with Ulfric's possible connections to the Thalmor and the fact that this entire uprising could be fueled mainly by his personal agenda of becoming High King more than just fight for freedom; And the Empire - Bound on keeping the age-long unification of their states and relative peace during those times, however poisoned with corruption and seemingly obvious degradation of power, since let's be honest, Septims did a whole lot better than the Mede dynasty ever seemed to.) Of course, unification and peace is good in the long term, however Nords seem to always be described as hardy warriors, one of the best in the empire, and since the Redguards could beat the Thalmor back from their lands on their own, Skyrim has a possibility of achieving the same feat. Of course, Skyrim has a lucky geographical position, since a land invasion could only come through either the Empire, Hammerfell, or Morrowind (Which according to some background lore I found, is apparently absorbed into the Argonian State after the eruption of the Red Mountain and the Dark Elf refugee wave, and as much as the empire and the Redguards are opposed towards the Dominion, I'm pretty sure Argonians wouldn't favor Aldmeri either - slavery. Also, and this I am not sure of, but if I recall correctly while playing Morrowind, I did overhear some Dunmer resentment towards the Altmer as well.Of course, quite a few centuries have passed since, but let's keep in mind that Elves can live that long.) Keeping all that in mind, what would be the most logical canon conclusion to the civil war conflict to set the stage for the new Elder Scrolls game? I'd love to read some structured opinions. :) By Sorko, 13:59, October 21, 2012 (UTC) Regarding non-Nord membership of the Stormcloak rebellion Bethesda provides numerous in-game references in the game of Skyrim that highlight how the Stormcloak rebellion is not a Nord-only affair. Specific examples which disprove the contentions of user Daevran13: *Endon refers to his son Cade, who is a Redguard native of Skyrim who has joined the Stormcloak uprising. Endon additionally mentions that he would have made the same choice as Cade did if he had been younger. This is revealed as part of random dialogue within the Silver-Blood Inn during evening hours. *The Dragonborn can partake in the initiation rite of the Stormcloaks regardless of his or her ethnic background. *When asked by a non-Nord character whether he or she should really consider joining the Stormcloaks after escaping from Helgen, the Stormcloak NPC Ralof responds with the following statement: ''"Of course! You don't have to be a Nord to fight for Skyrim's freedom." ''This is revealed by talking to the NPC right after the quest Unbound is completed. Assuming that user Daevran13's edits are made in good faith, they appear based on a lacking knowledge of the in-game lore of Skryim. His continued attempts at removing information directly relevant to the content of this article are detrimental to its quality, and are to be responded to accordingly. Arshudar Al-Muhdarin (talk) 12:51, February 9, 2014 (UTC) ::Their in-game dialogue when spoken to clarifies the following: ::*"''I'm on my way to Windhelm to join the Stormcloaks. Ulfric has the right of it." ::*"The Empire is in shambles. They've banned the worship of Talos." ::*"I may have roots in Cyrodiil, but Skyrim's as much my home as any Nord's." Verify this for yourself when playing the game and speaking to these NPCs when you encounter them. You are entitled to your own opinions, but not to your own facts.' (Arshudar Al-Muhdarin (talk) 18:16, November 24, 2013 (UTC))' :::None of this is proof he's an Imperial. If a Dunmer says the Empire is in shamlbes, this makes him an Imperial? Nonsense, stating a fact doesn't determine your race, neither does having roots in a particular province. Annaig Hoinart was a Breton living in Black Marsh and had roots there. Does that make her an Argonian? No. I've reverted the article to its previous state. The Creation Kit says he's a Redguard, then he's a Redguard. The fact the developpers programmed him a Redguard makes it a fact, not your personal interpretation of what he says. DRAEVAN13 '23:07, December 9, 2013 (UTC) ::::Which is still no justification for your repeated attempts at removing relevant information about non-Nord citizens joining the Stormcloak uprising. I've re-added this information yet again. If your behavior persists, I will report you for vandalism. Arshudar Al-Muhdarin (talk) 11:14, January 29, 2014 (UTC) ::::My edits are based on in-game evidence. The Stormcloaks have ZERO non-Nord members. This is according to the game's programming and the Construction Kit which allows us to view the race of every single member of the faction. ::::*Endon is not listed as a Stormcloak in the CK and his son Cade is never seen in-game, nor is there a Cade/Race=Redguard/Faction=Stormcloak in the CK. Ergo, it's an UNSUPPORTED RUMOR, not fact. ::::*Bethesda did that because restricting membership based on race would have induced fanboy rage. ::::*See above. ::::NOT. ONE. STORMCLOAK. IS. A. NON. NORD. Your edits appear to be based on either ignorance or desire to add your fanboy proaganda. 'DRAEVAN13 14:47, February 9, 2014 (UTC) :::::Sorry, but you're the one at fault. You keep adding mis-information about the Stormcloaks and reverting my edits when I return the page to a factual state. I've reported you to the Admins for adding mis-information. DRAEVAN13 02:14, February 1, 2014 (UTC) ::::::You are at fault. You appear to have an implicit intent of removing information from this article which covers the multi-cultural aspects of the Stormcloak rebellion, such as non-Nords joining and sympathizing with the movement. This amounts to intentionally spreading misinformation, and can be considered vandalism. I will notify TES Wiki administators of your behavior, and I will be closely watching the edits you make on other related articles, as this is clearly not an isolated incident. Arshudar Al-Muhdarin (talk) 12:17, February 9, 2014 (UTC) :::::::I have already discussed the situation with the Admins a few weeks ago, and they told me that I was right and that you were at fault: THERE ARE NO NON-NORD STORMCLOAKS. I've contatced them again and returned the Civil War paghe to a factual state. DRAEVAN13 14:33, February 9, 2014 (UTC) :::::::: Please keep this discussion civil and remove blaming from each-others edits. There's an easy way to solve this. Come up with the sources that says there were many non-Nords that joined the Stormcloak Rebellion. Otherwise, it is an assumption that many non-Nords joined. None of the Stormcloak Officers are anything but Nords. But, yes, there are some non-Nords that sympathize with the Stormcloaks. If you have stumbled upon other races that have said (in-game) that they support the Stormcloak Rebellion, then source the information inline with the text, so it's not construed as misinformation. :::::::: As for the Imperial Legion, the player fights alongside Legate Rikke and Hadvar; Nords. The Imperial Legion has more diverse races that joined, as evidence by the various races that have the rank of Legate. Legate Emmanuel Admand (Breton), Legate Fasendil (Altmer), Legate Hrollod (Nord), Legate Sevan Telendas (Dunmer), Legate Skulnar (Nord). :::::::: While it may be true that some non-Nords were headed up to join the Stormcloak Rebellion, during the civil war, how many non-Nord Stormcloaks did you see fighting alongside your character? This information is based on the Creation Kit not having any non-Nords listed. Non-Nords joining up is not the same thing as non-Nords sympathizing with the Stormcloaks. :::::::: Also, please do not cite an edit-revert as "Vandalism" when it is clearly not, it's a disagreement that needed further discussion. —TombRaiser [[User talk:TombRaiser|'SPEAK'!]] 19:22, February 9, 2014 (UTC) :::::::::: Thank you, Tombraiser. :::::::::: A few farmers saying they're going to join up does not mean there are "many non-Nord Stormcloaks", especially if they're never seen or heard from again. And even if Endon's son is a Stormcloak (even though there's no evidence to support this), that's a single man. Not "many". That doesn't mean the Redguards support Ulfric, either. One or two individuals do not speak for their entire race. DRAEVAN13 19:36, February 9, 2014 (UTC) :::::::::: I say we should add that some non-Nords have shown to sympathize with the Stormcloak cause, but never the less, only Nords make up the in-game Stormcloak ranks. That way, it explains what both editors are saying. I am Sylar (talk) 20:16, February 9, 2014 (UTC) :::::::::::What about the Last Dragonborn? Whatever race you are in-game you are allowed to join the Stormcloaks. Maybe the paragraph should be more like: "Any race is certified to enter into Stormcloak ranks.<.ref>Dialogue with Ulfric Stormcloak Although, no non-Nord members of the Stormcloak rebellion are shown in-game. Mention is made of them however, as Endon in Markarth speaks of his son Cade, a Redguard, joining into the Stormcloak Rebellion.<.ref>Dialogue with Endon (Remove '.'s from refs) 17:47, February 10, 2014 (UTC) :::::::::::::That would be fine. As long as it's doesn't say "there are many non-Nord Stormcloaks" or "The Redguards all agree with Ulfric" since that's a huge exaggeration and, well, false. :::::::::::::Though it's obvious any player race being able to join is for gameplay, not for lore reasons. Imagine if only Nord Dragonborns could join, people would throw a shit-fit. DRAEVAN13 18:05, February 10, 2014 (UTC) :::::::::::::Since Galmar Stone-Fist does acknowledge your race, I don't think it was just a gameplay thing. So, I think it should be added. But I agree with what you said that saying "all Redguards agree with Ulfric" or "there are a lot of non-Nord Stormcloaks in-game" is false. I am Sylar (talk) 18:22, February 10, 2014 (UTC) Minor Grammar Error In the "Trivia" section, the last point has a minor error. The first sentence reads, "In The Elder Scrolls V: Dawnguard quest Awakening, the Dragonborn may ask the vampire Serana on how long she's been sealed in Dimhollow Crypt." The word "on" does not belong in the sentence, it should just read "ask the vampire Serana how long". 20:37, February 23, 2014 (UTC) :Fixed 15:30, February 26, 2014 (UTC) Reference to another game There's a line comparing Skyrim to New Vegas. It's pretty pointless, and it bugs me. Is the wiki's policy to purge anything that doesn't relate to TES, or is this OK: Oddly enough, the dynamics of this war bear some resemblance to the fight for New Vegas in Fallout: New Vegas between the NCR and Caesar's Legion. The NCR, who adorn a two-headed bear (like the Stormcloaks use the Bear for their symbol) and Caesar's Legion, who, like the Empire, are based off of the Roman Legion, end up battling for control over the area. Any objections to me deleting it? IncinerateChicken (talk) 08:19, November 29, 2014 (UTC) Simplifying the title As far as I'm aware, there is no other game which talks about Civil Wars. So I propose that we move this to just "Civil War" (over the current redirect) since, until another game puts the player in the face of one, there is no reason to have this disambiguated with "Skyrim Civil War" as the title. --Sajuuk talk | | Channel 13:36, April 14, 2015 (UTC) :Bumping, just to make it noticed in the community. I assume that people would be fine with this change, but I'd like to hear from others first. --Sajuuk talk | | Channel 08:28, April 19, 2015 (UTC) ::There is no need to change the name, it was the Skyrim civil war, changing the name doesn't better or fix anything. I am going with the "if it isn't broken, don't fix it" method.-Cheatcodechamp (talk) 08:42, April 19, 2015 (UTC) :::I see your point Sajuuk but I'm not sure in changing the name for two reasons; it's always been known officially as the Skyrim Civil War (or the Civil War in Skyrim) and because there have been past civil wars discussed in lore books (which is probably why it got the title Skyrim Civil War in the first place), just obviously not wars big enough (well this one wasn't that big, but we got to play in it so you get what I mean...) like this one to warrant their own article. Bluesonic1 (talk) 08:43, April 19, 2015 (UTC) ::::@CCC: The "if it isn't broken, don't fix it" method never works on wiki's, nothing is perfect and things can always be improved. So assuming that nothing can be changed will only lead to issues down the line, since nothing is "complete" in a wiki environment. :D ::::@Bluesonic: The reason, I think, it should be moved, is because most of the links point at the Civil War redirect. A lot of links on the wiki that point directly to the page are piped to avoid a redirect. So, in all fairness, nearly every link is using the redirect, which makes it the more likely search target. You mention that other books talk about past wars, but don't other pages already mention them? ::::If mentioning that it's a Skyrim war is needed, we could always just do: "The Skyrim Civil War, commonly referred to as the Civil War" etc, in the lead, but I think most, if not all, people coming to this page will know it's a Skyrim war, not other civil wars. Most in-game characters just refer to it by "Civil War" or "Stormcloak Rebellion", the full "Skyrim Civil War" title is never used afaik. --Sajuuk talk | | Channel 08:47, April 19, 2015 (UTC) :::::I just don't feel that changing it because the redirect is most used is a just reason- because it is not its official title. It's kinda like character names, calling them a nickname as opposed to their full/real name. It's more appropriate to have the redirect as the nickname and the article showing their real name- officially, this was the Skyrim Civil War. Yeah, the redirect is going to be used more often because it's more convenient but it's not its full official & formal title. And yes, other pages do discuss other civil wars of other provinces, but you get what I mean in that each of those has their own title (even if they don't have a dedicated article) like this one is titled the Skyrim Civil War. I feel that it's just a more formal and precise title than simply calling it the Civil War. Bluesonic1 (talk) 09:06, April 19, 2015 (UTC) ::::::Can you provide a source that states the current title is the official one? It's not that I don't believe you, but the word "official" is easily thrown around to keep things as they are, even when it's not. :P ::::::Also, if a redirect is always used, it can indicate a better title, since there are some editors who will make efforts to systematically "remove" redirects even if they're very useful. So if the page is not actually directly linked on any other articles, but all the links point at a redirect, it would make more sense simply to move the page to the redirect. Note that, if this was moved, a redirect would be left behind. --Sajuuk talk | | Channel 09:15, April 19, 2015 (UTC) :::::::In terms of official title, I refer you to the trailer narration which highlights that the prophecy the Blades spoke about was about a civil war erupting specifically in Skyrim, and here is the prophecy that specifically mentions a Civil War in Skyrim i.e. Skyrim Civil War. And again, yes the redirect may indicate a better title but it can also indicate a common name that people use too, which is still not appropriate to name an article by e.g. everyone just calls him Galmar, but that doesn't mean the article should be renamed to that considering his full name is Galmar Stone-Fist. Bluesonic1 (talk) 09:35, April 19, 2015 (UTC) ::::::::Yes, they call it a "Civil War in Skyrim", not "Skyrim Civil War". They're just describing that Skyrim is the location of a Civil War, just like how -- on the wiki -- we write things like this: "In the Gray Quarter, you can find Dunmer refugees". That doesn't mean the section is called "Dunmer Gray Quarter" ;) ::::::::Character names are not the same, since we have to use in-game names for that. But nearly all the in-game characters call it a "Civil War", because the game is already based in Skyrim, so it would be redundant for them all to say "Skyrim Civil War", as that would make it seem like they are talking about a civil war somewhere else. ::::::::Does that make sense or no? Skyrim Civil War, at least to me, is only a descriptive name for the purposes of explaining to others where the Civil War takes place, it's not the official title. CK, or in-game content, could probably state more about it though. And please don't think I'm trying to push my thoughts on people, I just want to explain what I'm thinking, since this is a community effort ;) --Sajuuk talk | | Channel 09:41, April 19, 2015 (UTC) :::::::::Americans call their civil war as simply "The Civil War". Outside America, it's known as "The American Civil War". I don't see a need to change the title, for all we know there could be an Elsweyr Civil War in the future, and in Daggerfall there was a High Rock Civil War. ☞ Rim < Talk | Updates | > 17:27, April 19, 2015 (UTC) ::::::::::Not to be pedantic, but should this not have been resolved BEFORE you started changing all the links to "Skyrim Civil War", albeit piped links, to the redirect page "Civil War"? It seems like you have already made up your mind @SuperSajuuk. What's next? Renaming "Dragon Shouts" to "Voice" or "Shout"? Garry Damrau(talk) 04:30, April 22, 2015 (UTC) ::Garry, you don't have a clue what I was doing. I was fixing piped links which BYPASSED A REDIRECT. Those edits were NECESSARY. And no, I haven't made up my mind about anything. I would appreciate you drop the sarcasm. --Sajuuk talk | | Channel 07:58, April 22, 2015 (UTC) :::Links that 'bypass' redirects are sometimes called 'direct links'. Being 'piped', as you call it, should not be a problem. The user is directed straight to where they need to go. I might be new here but I can read the diffs and what I see is that you make a lot of edits that create more double links than they eliminate. As far as sarcasm goes, you should read your own comments and stop being 'the kettle calling the pot black'. P.S. If I'm in the wrong, please ask an Admin. to tell me and I'll stop editing here. Garry Damrau(talk) 08:09, April 22, 2015 (UTC) ::::^ An example of an attitude that is completely wrong. You should never bypass a redirect. They are there for a good reason. I was simply fixing the links to use those redirects because that's proper wiki-etiquette. Going around piping links to bypass redirects is detrimental and creates issues with things, so I was simply following proper standards. --Sajuuk talk | | Channel 08:15, April 22, 2015 (UTC) As Rim said, the term Civil War is a generic term dependent on which country you are in. In the real world there has been a French Civil War, a Spanish Civil War, a Mexican Civil War, a Russian Civil War, a Syrian Civil War, an Afganistan Civil War, a Japanese Civil War and many others including an American Civil War. Just because when you are playing TESV, everyone simply refers to it as the Civil War does not mean it's the ONLY Civil War. If someone enters Civil War in the search box they are directed to the Skyrim Civil War. I would like someone to explain to me why a 'piped' link is considered bypassing a redirect? To me all it's doing is linking DIRECTLY where you should go to learn what you want but displaying a different text than where you are linked to. Not everyone knows where to search for what they want. That is the reason for redirects and disambigs. I also do not appreciate being told that I don't have a clue. Is that how Patrollers here make people feel welcome? I took a while to respond because I was concerned that I WAS getting an attitude like you say. Garry Damrau(talk) 11:18, April 23, 2015 (UTC) :Because, piping a link Civil War IS redirect bypass. Civil War is a redirect to Skyrim Civil War, so piping the link is redirect bypass. Feel free to educate yourself on redirect bypass here. :Also, being a patroller doesn't make me above anyone else, we are all regular users, despite what some people might claim. I'm a regular user like you and when people post something that is wrong, I will tell them they are wrong and why. Me being a patroller doesn't automatically mean I cannot tell people when they're making statements that are simply not true. :You wrongly assumed I was "making an executive decision", when I was really cleaning up links to use the proper redirect that exists. That is something I will always do, regardless if a policy says to use direct links (unless, there is an ACTUAL reason to avoid a redirect, which there is never a reason to do so). :Also, by "attitude", I did not mean your tone, I was referring to your claims that a "direct links are better than redirects". --Sajuuk talk | | Channel 11:24, April 23, 2015 (UTC) So by that logic we should change all pages that use the piped link to Dragonborn to Dovahkiin because Dovahkiin is a redirect page. I will read the page you linked to but I will still feel that a direct link with alternate text is the best way to link when the pagename is different than the phrase uses to describe it. And telling someone that they "don't have a clue" is not an executive decision; It's rude, in anyone's book.-Garry Damrau(talk) 11:40, April 23, 2015 (UTC)